.. by Immerman ( 2627577 ) writes: on Wednesday November 25, 2015 @06:01PM ( #51004797 ) I would say an important question is, did the morphing happen before or after widespread adoption? And as I recall it happened well before. In which case I would argue that the starting point is really fairly irrelevant, and the actual "crimes" are: 1) calling an OS abstraction layer an init system when it clearly is far more than that (that seems to be perpetrated primarily by the detractors) 2) allowing a single party to tightly control the abstraction layer (though it does seem that such large-scale projects do need some sort of a singular "choke point" in order to ensure widespread compatability) 3) the discarding of lots of low-level components with large fan communities. 4) Having an OSAL at all? Though frankly, I think it's long overdue - one of my greatest annoyances with Linux is that practically every piece of nontrivial software seems to need to include explicit support and custom binaries for every major distro branch it runs on. That's a huge drain on developer time and energy, and one of the main reasons I've never done much Linux programming. Contrast to Windows where, with some fairly modest self restraint you can create a single binary that will run on everything from Windows95 to Windows10, and even Linux via WINE. Frankly (2) is the only one I see as a real problem, and I'm uncertain how big of a problem it actually is. After all systemd is still fairly modular, just incompatible with most of the pre-existing modules already out there. And the individual modules are mostly under the control of other groups. And it's still GPL, so if the systemd group proves excessively abusive of their power there's nothing stopping the downstream distros from forking the project, provided they're willing to re-adopt all the maintenance headaches they adopted systemd to escape. ..
.. by Anonymous Coward writes: on Wednesday November 25, 2015 @05:10PM ( #51004467 ) If you're allergic to trimming your neckbeard and running a modern init, just switch to *BSD where they adopted the features that people are whining about decades ago. ;) Haters hate, but do they know why? Do they have a choice? Do they have Free Will, or were they born unable to tell the difference between choosing software they want to run, and being forced to run software that... they chose? Let's run down the list of "why": - Systemd contains an unchecked null reference pointer that segfaults PID 1. Lennart Poettering states he won't fix it https://bugs.freedesktop.org/s... [freedesktop.org] - Systemd and Gnome allow bypassing gnome-shell password prompts granting root Left unfixed for over a year http://www.phoronix.com/scan.p... [phoronix.com] - Systemd segfaults during upgrades of itself, combined with the new log files that can't be retrieved Mr Poettering says are required to fix the bug, but he will not provide any method for Systemd to generate the logs he demands from it. https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/... [opensuse.org] https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/... [utoronto.ca] - Systemd distros can not boot if no ethernet link is present https://lists.debian.org/debia... [debian.org] - Systemd distros can not boot if using certain DNS servers https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bi... [debian.org] - Systemd distros can not boot if using certain NTP servers https://github.com/systemd/sys... [github.com] - Enabling the kernel "debug" command line option results in boot storage being filled with thousands of dmesg log entries per second from Systemd, and a non-booting system results https://bugs.freedesktop.org/s... [freedesktop.org] - Systemd disables SysRq keys to ensure data loss after any of the many many instances it is coded to fail under https://lists.debian.org/debia... [debian.org]
Re:The cabal has won. by Anonymous Coward writes: on Wednesday November 25, 2015 @03:34PM ( #51003695 ) is no longer the ancient monolithic beast you learned to love Don't you mean "is becoming the monolithic beast we moved away from when we first wiped our Windows install"? Modularity with a standard interface and substitutable glue - ie small tools which each do one job well, always with alternative implementations - were the hallmark of Unix. Now the alternatives are Lennart's software or clones of Lennart's software, and a BUG is something which doesn't work exactly like Lennart's software. No, the reason for systemd isn't that it's better. systemd has been chosen for the same reason almost everyone votes Democrat or Republican, spending ages arguing over minor details but failing to see that there's no real choice at all: if you boil the frog slowly enough and distract them hard enough with shiny, people stop paying attention to what's going on. Linux the kernel goes from strength to strength, but GNU/Linux the desktop operating system is over, and Linux servers are fast becoming Lennartix. Is this good? Это хорошо? IDK, is the cathedral model of software development good? It worked for OS X. But it's not the same system at all. ..
.. by Anonymous Coward writes: on Wednesday November 25, 2015 @06:31PM ( #51004959 ) Wait a week, I'm sure some of the systemd authors are working one now. It will only save its data in incompatible binary modes, will fracture the kernel on a regular basis, and will replace every file you edit with a symlink to /tmpfiles.d/. But hey, it least it will start fiast! ..
.. by Anonymous Coward writes: on Wednesday November 25, 2015 @04:26PM ( #51004131 ) Systemd is not (supposed to be) part of the desktop environment either, it's supposed to manage starting system daemons like sshd, httpd, dhcp, networking services, access to your keyboard, graphics management, and many other things that a system daemon starting utility has no business being involved in. The problem is that a large number of current required services are no longer properly maintaining their "non systemd" startup config and code, and are instead relying on the half-baked garbage that is systemd. Anyone who disagrees with the switch to systemd is then countered with social pressure and "get with the modern world, loser!" type arguments, rather than actual technical reasons, since for the most part, there aren't any. (Cue systemd fans giving reasons like "if it wasn't good, then nobody would be using it! Everyone else is doing it, get with the modern world loser!" now...) ..
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Date: 2016-11-02 03:24 am (UTC).. by Anonymous Coward writes: on Wednesday November 25, 2015 @05:10PM ( #51004467 ) If you're allergic to trimming your neckbeard and running a modern init, just switch to *BSD where they adopted the features that people are whining about decades ago. ;) Haters hate, but do they know why? Do they have a choice? Do they have Free Will, or were they born unable to tell the difference between choosing software they want to run, and being forced to run software that... they chose? Let's run down the list of "why": - Systemd contains an unchecked null reference pointer that segfaults PID 1. Lennart Poettering states he won't fix it https://bugs.freedesktop.org/s... [freedesktop.org] - Systemd and Gnome allow bypassing gnome-shell password prompts granting root Left unfixed for over a year http://www.phoronix.com/scan.p... [phoronix.com] - Systemd segfaults during upgrades of itself, combined with the new log files that can't be retrieved Mr Poettering says are required to fix the bug, but he will not provide any method for Systemd to generate the logs he demands from it. https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/... [opensuse.org] https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/... [utoronto.ca] - Systemd distros can not boot if no ethernet link is present https://lists.debian.org/debia... [debian.org] - Systemd distros can not boot if using certain DNS servers https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bi... [debian.org] - Systemd distros can not boot if using certain NTP servers https://github.com/systemd/sys... [github.com]
- Enabling the kernel "debug" command line option results in boot storage being filled with thousands of dmesg log entries per second from Systemd, and a non-booting system results https://bugs.freedesktop.org/s... [freedesktop.org] - Systemd disables SysRq keys to ensure data loss after any of the many many instances it is coded to fail under https://lists.debian.org/debia... [debian.org]
Re:The cabal has won.
by Anonymous Coward writes: on Wednesday November 25, 2015 @03:34PM ( #51003695 ) is no longer the ancient monolithic beast you learned to love Don't you mean "is becoming the monolithic beast we moved away from when we first wiped our Windows install"? Modularity with a standard interface and substitutable glue - ie small tools which each do one job well, always with alternative implementations - were the hallmark of Unix. Now the alternatives are Lennart's software or clones of Lennart's software, and a BUG is something which doesn't work exactly like Lennart's software. No, the reason for systemd isn't that it's better. systemd has been chosen for the same reason almost everyone votes Democrat or Republican, spending ages arguing over minor details but failing to see that there's no real choice at all: if you boil the frog slowly enough and distract them hard enough with shiny, people stop paying attention to what's going on. Linux the kernel goes from strength to strength, but GNU/Linux the desktop operating system is over, and Linux servers are fast becoming Lennartix. Is this good? Это хорошо? IDK, is the cathedral model of software development good? It worked for OS X. But it's not the same system at all. ..
.. by Anonymous Coward writes: on Wednesday November 25, 2015 @06:31PM ( #51004959 ) Wait a week, I'm sure some of the systemd authors are working one now. It will only save its data in incompatible binary modes, will fracture the kernel on a regular basis, and will replace every file you edit with a symlink to /tmpfiles.d/. But hey, it least it will start fiast! ..
.. by Anonymous Coward writes: on Wednesday November 25, 2015 @04:26PM ( #51004131 ) Systemd is not (supposed to be) part of the desktop environment either, it's supposed to manage starting system daemons like sshd, httpd, dhcp, networking services, access to your keyboard, graphics management, and many other things that a system daemon starting utility has no business being involved in. The problem is that a large number of current required services are no longer properly maintaining their "non systemd" startup config and code, and are instead relying on the half-baked garbage that is systemd. Anyone who disagrees with the switch to systemd is then countered with social pressure and "get with the modern world, loser!" type arguments, rather than actual technical reasons, since for the most part, there aren't any. (Cue systemd fans giving reasons like "if it wasn't good, then nobody would be using it! Everyone else is doing it, get with the modern world loser!" now...) ..
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/11/25/1728238/will-you-be-able-to-run-a-modern-desktop-environment-in-2016-without-systemd
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ru&sl=auto&tl=ru&u=http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/11/25/1728238/will-you-be-able-to-run-a-modern-desktop-environment-in-2016-without-systemd
http://slashdot.org/journal/2152187/systemd---why-did-debian-adopt-it
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ru&sl=auto&tl=ru&u=http://slashdot.org/journal/2152187/systemd---why-did-debian-adopt-it